[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]

Re: Avalon

Hi All,
           owing to lack of time I'm not really reading the list at the
moment but I couldn't resist this one.....

> Original Poster: "Christopher Boden"
<<mailto:chrisboden-at-hotmail-dot-com>chrisboden-at-hotmail-dot-com>
>
> Comments interspersed.....
>
> >Original Poster: Terry Fritz
<<mailto:twftesla-at-uswest-dot-net>twftesla-at-uswest-dot-net>
> >
> >Hi Chris,
> >
> >At 04:52 PM 03/06/2000 +0000, you wrote:
> > >
> > >We went out to the new facility yesterday, talked to some people, and
> > >looked
> > >around. This is what we know.
> > >
> > >The towers are very nearly 85' tall.
> > >They sit 40' apart.
> > >They are about 15' in diameter.
> > >They are on top of a 9 or 10 story building.
Of what relevance are these, are you thinking of them as pedestals for the
extra coils? or Coil forms?

> > >
> > >Questions.
> > >
> > >1. Is Electrum the largest coil in the world? Or is Wysock's 13M
bigger?
> >
> >I won't touch that one ;-)))
>
> No guts no glory :)
> I did my homework and technicly, as far as power, Electrum is larger, the
> 13M is (only....LMFAO) 100KVA. Though when you read the works on them the
2
> coils are night and day dissimelar.
>
> Electrum was made as Art, the 13M was made to be a model of one of Tesla's
> own coils.
>
>
> > >
> > >2. Can a 100' tall coil be built?
> >
> >Yes,  it only takes time, money, knowledge in unlimited quantity ;-))
>
> I do not think that we will need to go to such great lenghts to make that
> big a coil. I think a design goal of 250KVA, or even a bit less would be
> quite massive enough and we will design and build the coil to fit it.
> 250KVA should get us 100+ feet of discharges. The hardest part here is
> controlling the beast. Spurious discharges (D'Arsonval type especially) will
> be terribly difficult to stop.
Are you sure - I'd have said it was more like about 85 feet if you do it
well, based on empirical formulea and existing coils.
D'Arsonval discharges are not really a problem in a conventional coil.

I think you may want to stop and think about the magnitude of this; at
250kVA you need a dedicated feed, your own substation. While scrap pigs are
cheap and easy to get hold of for low power coils the power utility is not
gonna let you connect them to its network.  So you have to buy a new 250kVA
substation, hire the low loaders to install it, pay the engineers at $500
per day, have properly engineered switch gear, breakers with current
certificates etc.

Basically if you want to run 1/4 of a megawatt the power company will want to
know what you want to do with it, what sort of duty cycle you'll take, what
power factor your load is, make darn sure no rf goes back into the lines.
And unless you feel like doing a few years training you have to pay a lot of
high power EEs to do this all because no power or insrance company will
touch you with a barge pole unless ALL the work was carried out by a
properly qualified and experienced engineer.

> > >
> > >3. What would the ballpark costs of something of this magnitude be?
> >
> >That takes on site inspection by an expert in such things.  Be very
careful
> >of hidden costs.  Hate to put time and cash into this just to find some
big
> >show stopper latter on.  If you want to use the existing generators,
there
> >are a million things that have to be checked before re-powering the
plant.
> >If you want to connect to the external power grid, the utility company
will
> >ream you depending on the condition of the existing switching equipment.
I
> >have no idea how they will react to the use you are planning, but try to
> >get it on video tape ;-)))
>
> Actually, the utility company has been very nice to us, even when we told
> them we built a coil. They can tap us into the local grid through the
> substation if we so needed it. They were quite adament that THEY have to
do
> the feeds though....lol Like you're gonna catch me climing that
> fence.....I don't think so. I'm allergic to pain.
>
> I don't believe we will need a substation tap though, a BIG amperage feed at
> 240 should work fine.
1050A feed - single phase (lol).  Ummmm..... a SWITCH at that sort of power
level is bigger than a washing machine, and costs more than 10 washing
machines.
The variacs should be an interesting sight too.  As I haven't seen any
250kVA 240V variacs lately I think you'd be better off putting a large
variac on the distribution voltage side and then running the supply off 3
phase 415V stepped down from the variac output.

> > >
> > >4. What is the best H/D ratio for coils at these sizes? Is it still
4:1?
> > >
> >
> >Make the height and width bigger than anyone else's coil.  The bragging
> >rights are probably more important than any electrical concerns, within
> >limits.
>
> Well, duh :) But the H:D ratio is VERY important. There are a TON of
design
> questions to work out by smarter people than me. I'm an idiot, but I have
> the drive and motivation to make this happen.
What about the $$$s?

It depends how you are planning to run (maggi, classical or bipolar)

>
>
>
>
> > >Proposed design ideas.
> > >
> > >Remove one (or both) of the existing stacks and use the heavy
foundation
> >to
> > >mount the coil on. This gives us 10 stories above ground to start with.
Oh good - so everything you use has to be lifted 70 feet.
 
> >
> >I would be absolutely sure before tearing the stacks down that they can't
> >be used.  That is not a trivial task...
> >
> > >
> > >The coil is to be the largest of it's type in the world with a minimum
> > >margin of 10% to the existing record holder.
> > >
> > >The coil is to be of permanant construction and design. With a duty
cycle
> >of
> > >at least 1 5min run every 24 hours at midnight.
> > >
> > >The coil is to be impervious to the effects of rain, snow, and 50MPH
wind
> > >gusts. (Can guy lines be used?)
No you can't guy it.  Just stop and think about that one.  This thing is
gonna be outside 24/7/365 - you have to have it properly built using good
quality materials and to decent tollerances.  To start off with how do you
wind it? A 100' long winding lathe? After you've wound it how do you move
it, without it snapping in the middle? How do you then mount the terminal?
You could build the coil in sections, assemble them in situ and then wind
around it; however that means you've got to move all the wire around the form.

You need a large construction gang, a tower crane and a lot of expoxy resin.


> >
> >Generally no,  There are low field stress lines you may be able to follow
> >down to the ground but that is risky.
I doubt it - you might get away with it in the dry on a one off basis but
after a few weks of dirt, rain etc. they'll flash straight over.
>
> Given that this is a permanant structure, it has to meet ALL local codes,
> and be able to last a while. I cannot afford to build another one for a
> while.
How often do you have $300000 going spare?

> > >The coil is to have a discharge point in order to prevent damage to the
> > >building beneath it and strikes to the HV power lines (138KV)in the
> > >substation next to it while still makeing thew longest possible arcs.
> >Ideas?
> >
> >Is the substation still in use???  They may have line carrier equipment
> >that would be interfered with by the coil.  Also, the operating frequency
> >of the monster would be very low so the output arcs would kill anything
> >they struck...  Realize that if an arc does connect to those lines that
> >they will fry your coil.  They are probably 600 amp 138kV "nominal"  They
> >will switch out at 1000 amps in a few milliseconds but will blow your
coil
> >to bits in that time.  God only knows how much current they would pump
into
> >your coil (short) before the line switches out.  Of course, the power
> >company will insure that is your last run anyway.  They have no humor
about
> >such things...
And may well want you to pay for the damage or as a good friend of mine
would put it  'sue your ass back to the stone age'

>
>
> They have no humour at all :) Especially management. But we have been well
> recieved, especially since I am the first of the past 3 generations in my
> family to not me an IBEW member :)
>
> > >
> > >
> > >This is a pipe dream with a real possibility of becoming a reality, but
> >we
> > >need a LOT of help to do it. Let's make this a reality :)
That sort of help isn't free - this is in  a different league to small
coils, people won't just donate parts for it beacuse the parts are worth a
heck of a lot.
You can get a machinist to cut your 10" rsg rotor by buying him a few beers.
You have to pay him to spend a day or two doing the same for your 50" rotor.
And he won't be able to find that sort of size G-10 in the scrap box either,
you'll
have to pay the best part of a $1000 just for the material -  The prices for
one off quantities on engineering materials are absolutely obscene.


>
>
> Actually I have never posted anything to the list and gotten a bigger
> responce :) There are a LOT of people out there who would like to see this
> happen, and help. I have also gotten the expected emails about "You're
just
> a bunch of dumb kids" "You're gonna die", and "You'll never get the
> funding"......I live for that kind of encouragement :)
Carry on at this rate an you'll give Methusela a run for his money......

>
> In the tradition of Colorado Springs, Wardenclyffe, and many others this
> projects name is now Avalon, after the name of the facility and complex.
>
> As far as materials and supplies, they will be donated. That's easy. We
have
> never had a problem getting people to help with our endevours. We're not a
> corporation trying to get rich so I can retire at 30, we're teaching
people
> about science and technology and trying to help people, and to change the
> world. People like to help groups like us. It also gets them good press,
and
> a healthy writeoff.
Will be donated?  A few $$$s worth of nsts and variacs can be donated, 25k$
of power transformers, 30k$ of voltage regulators, 10k$ worth of reservoir
caps, 20k$ of impulse caps?.  Maxwell labs don't answer begging letters....

The big corps who have a public presecence and need the publicity will
donate stuff. Research labs, specialist component manufacturers and
engineering firms have no public prescence at all and don't need one.

>
> The biggest hurdle is getting the building, and I am working on it day and
> night. The coil is cake, getting a multimillion dollar facility donated is
> hard, but I put our odds at 60% or better. I will post news as I get it.
No - the biggest hurdle is building the thing.  I have 2 parents in project
management - to you a mere $1500 per day.  You need a serious management
team just to do a proper estimate for this thing.

>
> What I plan to do is the same thing we do for all our projects. I am
nothing
> more than a "Conductor (maestro, not copper)", I'm just the idiot that
every
> body yells at when the bills don't get paid or the parts haven't arrived.
I
> have a VERY talented and brilliant crew who works these miricles here.
Talent is one thing, experience is another. I have a friend who is a very
talented drummer, however I wouldn't want to do more than jam with him for
at least 2 or 3 years beacuse he doesn't know the repertoire and doesn't
have the self control he needs.

>
> Upon our getting the bulding, I put a call to arms out across the ethos of
> this list. Everybody who wishes to help, is asked to. I will have more
than
> enough room for houseing of anyone who wants to come and help. The
> accomadations won't be nice, but they will be liveable. I will be living
> there with you, and my workdays personally are 9AM to 2AM 7 days a
> week :)
Just out of interest what do you do for a living?

> Sleep is for wimps.
>
> I want to bring the Big Dogs together. Wysock, Dr.Resonance (what is his
> Real name anyway?) , Jim Lux, TTR, LOD, Terry, Chip (If he's still out
Dr. Res = D. C. Cox

> there), Reinhard (If he'll make the trip), and all the guys I forgot. The
> attitude of the Group is much like that of the list. We have a lot in
> common, we're not here to compete. Let's make this the best we can.
They all have jobs, for which they are paid and dependants to support.
For most of us this is a hobby, not a life.
Also, to be frank, they may wish to see a little more evidence of your
ability as a coil builder than one 15/60 nst coil before investing time and
money, I know I would.


>
> >From the short list I just made I see half a dozen people who have
various
> parts on hand suitable for Avalon. This isn't nearly as hard as I had
first
> thought. :)
Which parts? and are they willing to donate them? ('Hey Bill feel like
lending me that 120kVA power controller for the weekend?' 'Sure thing Nick,
why I don't mind hiring a container truck and driver, driving for 5 hours,
re-wiring the controller beacuse the power feed had the wrong type of
connector then watching my controller melt when some fool gets the ballast
setting wrong; and all this while I could be earning money, gee I feel good
to be alive' A slight exageration, but only slight)
>
> Getting big parts, like Caps (could we do this with an MMC?, no,
seriously.
> Could we make an MMC with Terry's little caps to such mammoth proportions?
I
> don't see why not....hmmmm), Fiberglass (or Sitka Sprouce from Alaska) is
> not too hard. We don't need too much of anything and getting sponsors is
> easy. Especially with getting Guiness involved, the media, etc.....
The 13M - a coil less than half the size of the one you propose used $3000
worth of sitka spruce, and it gets even more expensive when you need it in
100 foot lengths (for expensive read unobtainable)

An mmc maybe - but I'd think hard about the choice of caps and the building
needed to house them - space efficiency is one thing commercial impulse caps
have in their favour.

>
> I can do this, but I cannot do it alone. I'm not smart enough, and I don't
> have the years of experiance. What I have is the Group, the Facility, and
> the brains to know I can't do it alone (that unto itself is what keeps me
> from getting killed on a daily basis).
Just to give you an idea of the time and money involved I'm drawing up
quotes for a 30kVA permanent outdoor installation for a museum.  It has taken a
good few weeks just to get all the rough quotes from subcontractors. My
estimate
has ended up at about £30k (and I'd say that was low) - of which very little
is for the actual tesla coil.
I can pick up 15kVA pole pigs for £100 each - but that isn't what costs
money.  The properly installed control gear, the custom built control
panels, the rf ground going down 17', the well built base building with
proper foundations, the extraction gear needed to keep ozone levels low
enough, the fireproofed materials which must be used throughout to reduce
the fire risk from freak discharges, the custom made finite element
discharge terminal, the custom wound vacuum impregnated charging chokes, the
interlocks needed to prevent people coming into contact with the hv, proper
drainage for the tank circuit room,  oil rated fire extinguishing systems in
case the impulse caps or pigs catch fire, the sec wire with non-flammable
insulation, etc.

With this stuff you can't just say 'but it won't go wrong' beacuse it can go
wrong and you've got to make it 100% safe when it does.
>
> Alright, anyone who wants to help, weather to donate materials, sponsorship, 
> funding, or to come and play in Michigan, or do design, whatever, email me
> off list at <mailto:chrisboden-at-hotmail-dot-com>chrisboden-at-hotmail-dot-com
>
> Those who think I can't do this and should just play with my NST's and
such, 
> please email me at <mailto:whiner-at-geekgroup-dot-org>whiner-at-geekgroup-dot-org.
I'm not saying don't do it, but realise the implications of doing it.  If
you plan to open this to the public then you've got to build it properly.
The skills you need aren't tesla building, but construction and project
management.  The coil design is easy compared to getting it built on time
and on budget (now where have I heard that before......)

BTW: To get the record you'll actually need to build a 650kVA system as I
believe Robert Golka and co.'s old coil is now running at 600kVA for USAF
test purposes. The HAARP research probably beats that one as well but that
one's a touch classified...;-)

Regards
Nick Field

>
> Thank's Guys :)
>
> Christopher Boden
> The Geek Group
> <http://www.geekgroup-dot-org>www.geekgroup-dot-org
>
> 50 points if you know what "Avalon" really is, and why I choose it as a
> name.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at
<http://www.hotmail-dot-com>http://www.hotmail-dot-com
>
>
>