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RE: [TCML] Best bottle cap electrolytes, was re:HV capacitors wanted
I'm not an authority on this topic, but, there's plain tap water, deionized water, and distilled water, all very different. I believe that to be used as an insulating dielectric, several stringent requirements exist. Most importantly, it must be extremely pure and deionized, with a continuous deionizing filter pump. And beyond that, the charge and discharge cycles must be extremely brief. Our caps have some charge on them pretty much all the time.
The person who suggested using plain tap water rather than brine was not suggesting using distilled or deionized water, and it wasn't clear whether there was any salt residue in the bottles.
I didn't understand "If it is the results of minerals, how could this be repeated anywhere else?"
Regards, Gary Lau
MA, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jim Mora
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:09 PM
> To: 'Tesla Coil Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: [TCML] Best bottle cap electrolytes, was re:HV capacitors wanted
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I was under the impression that plain water (de-ionized or distilled0 is a
> pretty good dielectric. If it is the results of minerals, how could this be
> repeated anywhere else?
>
> Jim Mora
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf
> Of Lau, Gary
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:35 AM
> To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [TCML] Best bottle cap electrolytes, was re:HV capacitors
> wanted
>
> While studies have been made comparing the conductivities of various
> electrolytes, it may be worthwhile to compare actual spark performance of
> electrolytes. Someone recently mentioned to me off-list that his experience
> was that plain water appeared to work as well as brine. I have no further
> information about this; I can't comment on the purity of the plain water or
> the accuracy and test conditions of the comparison.
>
> Who knows, it may just be a hasty observation, or it may be that electrolyte
> losses at RF frequencies don't correlate to DC measurements. Or that all
> such losses pale in comparison to gap losses. It _would_ be nice to use
> just pure, non-corrosive water.
>
>
> Regards, Gary Lau
> MA, USA
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of FIFTYGUY@xxxxxxx
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:32 AM
> > To: tesla@xxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [TCML] Best bottle cap electrolytes, was re:HV capacitors wanted
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 12/2/08 9:43:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > pslawinski@xxxxxxxxx writes:
> >
> > >If you're stuck with glass bottle capacitors, you should try baking soda
> and
> > >water instead of salt and water. Supposedly baking soda is more
> >
> > >conductive.
> >
> >
> > I found that hard to believe (I work for a company that manufactures
> > electrolytic cells for on-site generation of chlorine gas from table
> salt). A
> > saturated NaCl solution has a conductivity of around 0.25 S/cm.
> > I've also used the electrolytic process for rust removal, and it's
> > generally agreed that sodium bicarbonate is one for the slowest-working
> > electrolytes for that application. Sodium Carbonate (baking powder) works
> more
> > quickly.
> > Here's a science fair project where various salts were evaluated for
> > conductivity specifically for Tesla coil bottle capacitor applications:
> >
> > :http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0535.pdf
> >
> > BTW, Sodium Hydroxide would have 50% better conductivity than NaCl,
> but
> > it has a decreasing conductivity once you get over 20 percent
> concentration.
> > The conductivity of various salt solutions can be highly dependent on
> > temperature, are typically non-linear, and as in the case of NaOH, can
> have a
> > local maximum with regards to concentration.
> > Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) at the 37% azeotrope would have three times
> the
> > conductivity of saturated NaCl.
> >
> > It would be interesting to see if the conductivity of the electrolyte
> in
> > the bottle caps made any noticeable difference. After all, they represent
> a
> > pretty big surface area, and the spark gap has a dynamic impedance in the
> > neighborhood of a few Ohms. Using more bottles that were smaller could
> have
> > just as large an effect as using a different electrolyte, and the would
> also
> > theoretically improve the AC impedance of the cap bank as well. Probably
> also
> > help mitigate heating of the glass in the caps as well.
> >
> > -Phil LaBudde
>
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