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Re: [TCML] sealing a cardboard form
Many coilers build parts of their coil to industrial quality, using VFDs, PLCs, inverter rated 3 phase motors, high temp magnet wire, industrial PowerStats, contactors and relays, HIGH dollar spun aluminum toroids, old growth forest hardwoods, high quality plastics, ornamental brass, etc. Some of these components can be had used for pennies on the dollar. Others are only available new, and are quite expensive.
While I've never used Dolph's myself, I see no problem with someone recommending, and even selling it, to hobbyists. DC has offered a number of components over the years. I bought a beautiful 8.5"x34" spun aluminum toroid from him a few years back, in a bulk buy. Was that overkill? You're darned right it was! I could have built a dryer duct toroid for a fraction of the price. But it sure is pretty!
DC recommends a more conservative approach to MMCs than almost all amateurs use. That doesn't make him wrong, just more cautious than many budget-minded coilers.
Adam
--- On Sun, 7/26/09, DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [TCML] sealing a cardboard form
> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 1:26 AM
> Certainly, there are definitely
> alternatives. Polyurethane will flake off
> especially if it is subjected to any heating/cooling
> cycles. Epoxies are
> great if you get the mixture perfect, if not, sometimes
> they never
> completely cure and remain tacky.
>
> I've built approx 250 coils using AC-43, some in operation
> for over 30 years
> without any breakdown.
>
> You also have to consider it's used on HV transformers,
> approx 250 built on
> a daily basis in USA.
>
> Their industry wide reputation is such that it not
> questionable, just solid
> engineering. It's used by over 70 transformer
> manufacturers in the USA
> alone. Perhaps many more worldwide.
>
> If you need further proof, just call Dolph's and they will
> email you the
> engineering data.
>
> Yes, someone certainly could do the work of winding several
> coils, then test
> them for breakdown, but this usually requires time and
> money. Also,
> expensive test instruments
> to make the correct measurements in a precise fashion.
>
> As usual, your "suspicions" are out of line, and certainly
> not in the spirit
> of this forum. I try to help experimenters, not be
> overly critical of their
> work or efforts.
>
> Dr. Resonance
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:39 PM, <quarkster@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dave -
> >
> > I would venture an educated guess that very, VERY few
> Tesla coils have
> > actually been built using the expensive Dolf''s
> varnish as a secondary
> > overcoat. Based on closely monitoring this list for
> nearly ten years,
> > attending a fair number of Teslathons, and
> coresponding with scores of TC
> > builders over the years, I estimate that for operating
> amateur-built TC's of
> > all sizes, the "real numbers" for secondary
> overcoatings may look something
> > like this:
> > 1. No secondary overcoating at all;
> > 2. Clear varnishes of all types, including oil and
> water base types (most
> > commonly polyurethane, but also good old fashoned
> marine spar varnish, etc);
> > 3. Two-part epoxy materials;
> > 4. Dolph's AC-43, "Glyptal", and other types of
> commercially-sold "corona
> > dope" insulating coatings.
> >
> > I think that a very interesting experiment would be to
> wind at least 5
> > identical secondary coils, coat 4 of them with the
> most commonly used
> > insulating material, and then subject them to
> ever-increasing electrical
> > stress in a large bang-size coil, gradually increasing
> coupling until
> > insulation failure (racing sparks, turn-turn arcing,
> etc.) occurs.
> >
> > I'm strong proponent of evaluating new processes and
> materials in an
> > attempt to improve the technology. Successful
> evaluation means pushing
> > the stress levels to the threshold of failure, and
> beyond. If someone is
> > willing to take the time to evaluate new "stuff", and
> understands that this
> > unavoidably includes the risk of failure, then let's
> not dissuade them from
> > trying.
> >
> > If a small-to-medium size secondary fails this
> testing, what's the cost? At
> > max, $20 or so of magnet wire, $10 worth of PVC pipe,
> and a few hours of
> > labor, it's not terribly significant.
> >
> > If DC Cox (or anyone else) has spent lots of time and
> money functionally
> > evaluating multiple kinds of other secondary
> insulating materials before
> > finally selecting Dolph's AC-43 as the very best, then
> I invite him to share
> > this interesting and useful data with the TCML.
> >
> > Personally, I suspect that DC read some Dolph's
> advertising claiming that
> > it was "good for high voltage applications", found
> that he could make a
> > profit by re-packaging and re-selling this product at
> a markup, and thereby
> > claims that it is "the best material" for
> insulating TC secondary coils.
> >
> > If there really IS comparative test data, developed
> under controlled
> > conditions, that shows the clear superiority of
> Dolph's for this specific
> > application, then let's see it.
> >
> > I happen to prefer two-part epoxy for coating
> secondary coils, and I have a
> > number of very specific reasons for this preference
> (that I have shared with
> > the TCML over the years through several detailed
> posts). However, I do not
> > have side-by-side test data comparing epoxy with other
> materials, so I
> > cannot prove it's superiority on all possible
> evaluation criteria. And no, I
> > don't sell any epoxy coatings of any kind.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Herr Zapp
> >
> > --- On Fri, 7/24/09, Dave Halliday <dh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Dave Halliday <dh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: [TCML] sealing a cardboard form
> > To: "'Tesla Coil Mailing List'" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 11:19 PM
> >
> >
> > A couple of comments inline:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of PAUL THOMPSON
> > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:36 PM
> > > To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [TCML] sealing a cardboard form
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "DC Cox" <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 4:20 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TCML] sealing a cardboard form
> > >
> > >
> > > >A Tesla coil secondary coilform is subjected
> to very high potential
> > > > stresses. Why not just use a product
> especially developed
> > > to seal high
> > > > voltage transformer windings?
> > >
> > > Because improvisation and learning is why I do
> this. If I
> > > want a perfect
> > > secondary, I can buy one. But why bother?
> >
> >
> > How many hours do you want to spend to find out that
> your 'great idea' was
> > an engineering rathole and that your time and
> materials have been wasted.
> > There are a lot of people offering advice here and the
> reason that people
> > keep coming back to specific things is that they have
> been tested by the
> > community and have been found to work the best.
> >
> > MMC's, specific coatings, designs for spark gaps,
> etc...
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dolph's AC-43 is one such liquid especially
> designed with
> > > high dielectric
> > > > resistance, and anti-tracking properties.
> > >
> > > Do you sell this stuff or what?
> > >
> >
> > He probably does but I would doubt that he makes a lot
> of money off of it.
> > This is especially a factor considering just how many
> gallons of other
> > paints / varnishes / coatings / etc... he probably
> tried out before he
> > found
> > that Dolph's worked the best.
> >
> >
> > I would hate to see the number of 5-gallon tubs of
> very expensive stuff he
> > has with just a couple pints taken out and a faint "Oh
> Snap!" still hanging
> > in the air.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > You certainly can take a chance with other
> products, but if
> > > they don't do
> > > > the job then you have to completely replaced
> the coilform
> > > and rewind the
> > > > coil.
> > >
> > > We learn by doing.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Or by watching other people doing the same thing and
> learning from their
> > mistakes.
> >
> >
> > Set RANT=off
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Dave
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Tesla mailing list
> > Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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