[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
Hi DC Drake, All,
I think this discussion brings up a very important point: Whom do you trust? While, on the plus side, the Internet allows one to get information on anything, it unfortunately allows one to find?ANYTHING. That is to say, there are no crap filters or quack filters. This means that in any scientific or technical area, you have to be around quite a while and be quite knowledgeable yourself to be able to distinguish information from reliable sources from the rantings "aetherheads". ?On top of this, there will always be some disagreement about interpretation of data among solid, seasoned researchers.
Newbies and neophytes to scientific method are sometimes over-zealous in their tendency to challenge everyone and everything not backed up in detail all the way to first principles. These usually mellow over time, but can be quite "thorny" at first. There are also a few P.I.T.A. individuals who believe it is their life's mission to bring down the established order, no matter what.
It has taken me a good eight years of reading TCML postings to form my personal list of "Solids, Newbies, Maybes, and Whackos". And No, I will not share my list with anyone except to say that?the majority of?people?go from the Newbie?to?the Maybe category after 2-3 years, unless they catapult themselves into the last group, and I don't always agree with the Solids, but I respect their proven integrity.
YOMV,
Matt D.
-----Original Message-----
From: DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Tesla Coil Mailing List <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
Drake
You post is extremely accurate. I'm very busy, but do try to help where I
can. That's why most of my posts are brief and to the point.
I usually give advice based on my experience. Over the past 50 years of
Tesla coil building I've done many experiments and carefully recorded
everything in my daily journals.
In many cases experimenters are literally demanding to see proof of this or
that. I just don't have time to dig thru all my papers or provide
"court-like" documentation of my work upon which my opinions are formulated.
I help where and when I can, and I apologize to anyone who wants a volume of
information ---- I just simply don't have the time to scan and post all my
data. That's why getting in "flaming" arguments over a point is just not my
cup of tea. If they believe what I say fine --- if they don't, well, let
them do the experiments and find out for themselves.
Getting flammed and ending up wasting valuable time arguing with people is
one reason why many professionals simply do not get involved with internet
groups. It's truly a shame because many engineers have a lot of information
that would be helpful to experimenters, but they just don't have time to go
thru the hassle.
Point in case is the recent blast from someone who thought Dolph company
just puts out worthless advertising information. Wrong. I've talked
extensively with their engineers and transformer engineers who use their
products because they are superior to any other product on the market.
Certain varnishes and coatings, such as they manufacture, are designed
specifically for their applications. Sure, they cost a bit more than
something designed to provide scuff resistant coatings on floors, but that
is because they have paid highly trained engineers to conduct careful
studies of their products and also interact in strong concert with
transformer company engineers to solve their problems. These engineers
don't work cheap, and marketing a product is very expensive these days
($2,500 for a one page ad in an engineering
or museum journal), and that is
why their business managers don't let them waste time talking to amateurs.
It's no offense to amateurs who sometimes take offense, but it's a matter of
time and money.
You may notice other professional coil builders, ie, Wysock and Parissee,
don't ever come on the list to assist with people asking questions. There's
a reason --- it's not that they don't have the knowledge or documentation of
their work --- they just don't have time to share all their information.
And, some pros on this and other internet lists have been flamed so bad they
never come back.
I think we should focus on helping individuals who ask for help and quit
always trying to "knit-pick" on anyone who is providing information. If you
don't believe the information being provided, then do the experiment
yourself and find out the "why" part. It takes a lot of time and most
experimenters spend so much time in construction work the last thing they
want to do is get into lengthly arguments over points of engineering.
Thanks for understanding.
D.C. Cox
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Drake Schutt <drake89@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> In response to both Herr Zapp and John Kirby-
>
> Yes, DC's short posts do often leave more information to be desired.
> However he is a frequent poster and often answers novice's questions that
> others might respond with "check the archives". That being said, he is the
> only person (that i know of) on this list that actually makes a living of
> our collective hobby. A lot of business people that I know are often
> pressed for time which would explain some of DC's short posts.
>
> Drake Schutt
>
> PS- I for one am jealous of DC and other's- imagine being able to build
> Tesla Coils for a living! Although I'm sure it's not all peaches and
> cream.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:05 PM, jc <johncatherine@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > DC
> >
> > Other members do not speak for me. Far from being frustrated by your
> > posts, on the contrary I am happy to learn what you have to share.
>
>
> > Regards,
> > John Kirby
> >
> >
> > Quarkster wrote:
> >
> >> DC -
> >> Please explain what "not adequate" means, regarding 7 strand vs 19
> strand
> >> wire of the same gage.
> >> Why would the number of strands in a given size wire have any affect or
> >> influence on winding the secondary coil, the performance of the
> completed
> >> coil, cost, appearance, etc, etc.??
> >> (It's these incomplete statements with no supporting information that
> are
> >> so frustrating to TCML readers!!)
> >> Knowing that the immediate response of EVERY reader of your post will
> be
> >> "what possible difference can the number of strands make??", why not
> provide
> >> the missing information in your original post? Something like this
> would be
> >> far, far more useful:
> >> "I use the 19 strand silver tinned type wire usually in 14 to 18 AWG on
> >> many
> >> of my high power coils. The 7 strand is not adequate because:
> >> (for example)
> >> "It is far stiffer than the 19 strand wire and does not conform closely
> >> to the the secondary coilform."
> >> or "The 19 strand wire has 12% lower AC resistance than the 7 strand
> >> wire at the 125KHz resonant frequency of this particular 6" diameter X
> 32"
> >> long secondary."
> >> Or whatever, just be specific! This is a technology forum, not a
> >> gardening forum where "Plant the seeds sometime in August, and water
> >> occassionally" is specific enough to get the desired results.
> >> Regards,
> >> Herr Zapp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 7/29/09, DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Subject: Re: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
> >> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 6:34 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> I use the 19 strand silver tinned type wire usually in 14 to 18 AWG on
> >> many
> >> of my high power coils. The 7 strand is not adequate.
> >>
> >> Dr. Resonance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM, jimlux
<jimlux@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Lau, Gary wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Are you saying that you use silver-plated STRANDED wire for
> >>>> secondaries? Granted, AC resistance and Q are far less important on
> >>>> the secondary side, but the notion of this wire being superior to
> >>>> common magnet wire is incorrect. Stranded wire is inherently more
> >>>> lossy at RF frequencies. This is because the skin effect causes
> >>>> current to travel on the outer surface of the bundle. If a strand on
> >>>> the outside of the bundle weaves to the interior of the bundle, the
> >>>> current in that strand will try to find its way back to the surface,
> >>>> and this means traveling to adjacent conductors, through any
> >>>> resistive oxide layers between them. This strand-hopping results in
> >>>> a much higher AC resistance than if a single conductor were used.
> >>>> This is the reason that Litz wire insulates the strands from one
> >>>> another.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Most stranded wire is NOT braided. It's something like 7 strands, so
> the
> >>> outside strands stay outside. THe other thing is that 100kHz-ish
> >>> frequencies have a fairly thick skin depth (0.2 mm in copper). It's not
> >>> like
> >>> at 15 MHz where skin depth is a few tens of microns.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Tesla mailing list
> >>> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Tesla mailing list
> >> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Tesla mailing list
> >> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tesla mailing list
> > Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
> >
> _______________________
________________________
> Tesla mailing list
> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
>
_______________________________________________
Tesla mailing list
Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
_______________________________________________
Tesla mailing list
Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla