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Re: [TCML] Spark gap comparisons
Well said John - thank you.? As a still semi-newbie, into coiling now for 2+ years, and without a degree in?electronics/electricity/physics and no related job experience, I have greatly appreciated getting ideas and direction from this group (and other resources)...even if I didn't necessarily fully understand all the underlying principles each time.?
Trust me, even when a best practice has been "handed to" me by list members, it still has resulted in a terrific learning experience.? I have had to apply the best practice, and I have?still gone on to experiment from there, and have burned/blown up or otherwise destroyed things - including my garage door opener.? All of those have been learning experiences for me.? And as John points, the info I've gotten from this group helps give us a better starting point than starting from scratch.? Newbies don't have to reinvent the wheel (and experience all the time, cost, damage, etc.) as the only way to?learn.??Your collective experience is invaluable to us.
I've done a lot of homework on my own?to gain knowledge, but if I would have held back on building a coil until I?really full understood all or a lot of the principals, it would still be 5 years before I'd be?"ready."? That's my perspective.? The only other thing I want to say is thank you to all those on this list?who have given me their thoughts, ideas, shared their experience and pointed me the right direction.? Especially Brian Foley who has coached me from sparks in the 20s to 53"+.? My sincere appreciation to all of you guys.?
Dennis Hopkinton MA
-----Original Message-----
From: FutureT@xxxxxxx
To: tesla@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [TCML] Spark gap comparisons
In a message dated 2/23/2008 10:46:18 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>Hi John,
>I think a rotary or triggered gap may or "may not" outperform a static
>gap if all at 120 bps and because one can't assume all static gaps are
>the same (if they do, their naive).
Bart,
I agree with the above because you left out the stipulation that I included
that the coil in question must have an LTR cap, and be powered by an
NST. I agree that there are many things that we can't yet conclude
about coil operation, yet there are things that we can conclude at least
on a practical basis. For example if I'm speaking to a newbie coiler
who has no familiarity with coil behavior, he might wonder when he
can get a stronger spark using a 120 bps rotary or if he can get
an equally strong spark using a static gap. If he has an NST, LTR
system, I'd feel pretty confident telling him that he'd get longer sparks
by switching over to a 120 bps rotary gap system. In fact this has
happened many times on this list. I consider this to be practical
information that a newbie coiler can use and benefit from right now,
"before" spark gap physics is better understood. Certainly all static
gaps are not the same, but I'm suggesting that even the best ones
cannot outperform the rotary in the situation I describe. I consider
this to be a rule of thumb of coiling. I suppose it's possible that
there might be some rare "outlier" type situation where what I'm
saying might not be true, but most newbies probably want to know
what works in nearly all cases. Much would be depend on the type
of newbie. If a particular newbie wishes to begin their coiling
experience by learning the most intricate details of arc-dynamics,
and the physics of coiling, then they might approach things in a
certain way. Others want practical information about coiling.
Many of the newbie questions that I see on this list are of that
type. And that is the type of question which I was responding to
with my comments. If I can offer rules of thumb which tend to
work well, that's something that can benefit a newbie.
I can understand your cautious view of not
wanting to jump to any conclusions about the behavior of coils
before things are fully understood. I also think it's important to
address what type of behavior a newbie might see in a particular
design of coil. For this purpose I divide coils in the various
"styles". For example there's the NST, LTR coil which has
certain characteristics, then there's the NST, STR coil which
has other characteristics. Then there's the ballasted pig coil
which has still different characteristics. If the newbie can get
a grip on the expected behaviors of these various types of coils,
then he's ahead of the game at least as a starting point. As he
progresses in his coiling over time, he may or may not decide to
study the underlying physics, or subtleties of coil and gap
behavior, etc. The ideas I'm offering offer a starting point for
understanding for the newbie as he's approaching coil design
questions.
>Maximum spark output as a
>comparative value can be good or bad depending on many variables. But
>given the data at the time of measurement, usually a single conclusion
>would be made (what you see is what you get).
Again, most newbies when they begin coiling, are looking for maximum
spark length from their coils for a given input power. I'd say at least 90%
of the newbie questions on this list attest to that. Other newbies want
maximum spark length regardless of input power !
>I agree that more of "us" should join in and do the comparisons that you
>have done (as you know, you are in high regard with me in this respect).
>But even though that is true, I still have doubts on conclusions on some
>things (not to be disagreeable, but simply attempting to understand the
>conclusions with the tests at hand). I guess it comes down to the more I
>learn, the more I don't take everything at face value and give a little
>more attention to statements or conclusions.
You're approaching the issues as a true scientist and researcher.
I have that side of my personality also, and hold it in high regard.
I think there's also a place in coiling for rules of thumb, or general
guidelines
for what a coiler can expect from a particular coil configuration.
>I'm uncertain on many past gap experiments of comparison. I think all
>test are certainly worthwhile and tell us something, but I'm not sure we
>have actually determined well what it is the tests have shown us. More
>work is certainly needed in this area as you have stated in just about
>every post on the subject. I think your exactly right about that.
I agree that many past gap experiments were poorly done and resulted
in wrong conclusions. Some of my early experiments fall into that
category I later realized. Yes, more work is needed.
Cheers,
John
>
>Best Regards,
>Bart
FutureT@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Bart,
>
> I think that in probably all cases an NST powered LTR coil under
> 2 or 3kW will give longer sparks using a 120 bps rotary or a
> 120 bps triggered gap than
> using a static gap. If the coil has a smaller (STR) cap, then
> it may do just as well using the static gap as with a rotary,
> because it's no longer necessary to fire at the peak voltage for
> best results. Also such a coil may need an ASRG to find
> the sweet spot. In coils that have non-shunted transformers
> the picture becomes more complex because the degree of
> ballasting effects the input power, etc, and can enable the
> coil to perform at various break-rates, etc. Regarding how
> the gap is being evaluated, I'm looking simply at max spark
> output. If the gap heats up after awhile and the sparks shrink,
> then it's obvious more cooling is needed, or a re-design, etc.
> Certainly a high powered coil will need a more robust spark
> gap, etc. Many of these things are just common sense
> issues. I consider the comparisons to be valid as long as
> the sorts of things I mention are considered. It would be
> good to see more folks doing such comparisons however.
>
> John
>
>
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