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Re: [TCML] Spark gap comparisons
Your Welcome! thanks brian F.
www.genapro.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <otmaskin5@xxxxxxx>
To: <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] Spark gap comparisons
> Well said John - thank you.? As a still semi-newbie, into coiling now for
2+ years, and without a degree in?electronics/electricity/physics and no
related job experience, I have greatly appreciated getting ideas and
direction from this group (and other resources)...even if I didn't
necessarily fully understand all the underlying principles each time.?
>
> Trust me, even when a best practice has been "handed to" me by list
members, it still has resulted in a terrific learning experience.? I have
had to apply the best practice, and I have?still gone on to experiment from
there, and have burned/blown up or otherwise destroyed things - including my
garage door opener.? All of those have been learning experiences for me.?
And as John points, the info I've gotten from this group helps give us a
better starting point than starting from scratch.? Newbies don't have to
reinvent the wheel (and experience all the time, cost, damage, etc.) as the
only way to?learn.??Your collective experience is invaluable to us.
>
> I've done a lot of homework on my own?to gain knowledge, but if I would
have held back on building a coil until I?really full understood all or a
lot of the principals, it would still be 5 years before I'd be?"ready."?
That's my perspective.? The only other thing I want to say is thank you to
all those on this list?who have given me their thoughts, ideas, shared their
experience and pointed me the right direction.? Especially Brian Foley who
has coached me from sparks in the 20s to 53"+.? My sincere appreciation to
all of you guys.?
>
> Dennis Hopkinton MA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FutureT@xxxxxxx
> To: tesla@xxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:53 am
> Subject: Re: [TCML] Spark gap comparisons
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/23/2008 10:46:18 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
> bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>
> >Hi John,
>
> >I think a rotary or triggered gap may or "may not" outperform a static
> >gap if all at 120 bps and because one can't assume all static gaps are
> >the same (if they do, their naive).
>
> Bart,
>
> I agree with the above because you left out the stipulation that I
included
> that the coil in question must have an LTR cap, and be powered by an
> NST. I agree that there are many things that we can't yet conclude
> about coil operation, yet there are things that we can conclude at least
> on a practical basis. For example if I'm speaking to a newbie coiler
> who has no familiarity with coil behavior, he might wonder when he
> can get a stronger spark using a 120 bps rotary or if he can get
> an equally strong spark using a static gap. If he has an NST, LTR
> system, I'd feel pretty confident telling him that he'd get longer sparks
> by switching over to a 120 bps rotary gap system. In fact this has
> happened many times on this list. I consider this to be practical
> information that a newbie coiler can use and benefit from right now,
> "before" spark gap physics is better understood. Certainly all static
> gaps are not the same, but I'm suggesting that even the best ones
> cannot outperform the rotary in the situation I describe. I consider
> this to be a rule of thumb of coiling. I suppose it's possible that
> there might be some rare "outlier" type situation where what I'm
> saying might not be true, but most newbies probably want to know
> what works in nearly all cases. Much would be depend on the type
> of newbie. If a particular newbie wishes to begin their coiling
> experience by learning the most intricate details of arc-dynamics,
> and the physics of coiling, then they might approach things in a
> certain way. Others want practical information about coiling.
> Many of the newbie questions that I see on this list are of that
> type. And that is the type of question which I was responding to
> with my comments. If I can offer rules of thumb which tend to
> work well, that's something that can benefit a newbie.
> I can understand your cautious view of not
> wanting to jump to any conclusions about the behavior of coils
> before things are fully understood. I also think it's important to
> address what type of behavior a newbie might see in a particular
> design of coil. For this purpose I divide coils in the various
> "styles". For example there's the NST, LTR coil which has
> certain characteristics, then there's the NST, STR coil which
> has other characteristics. Then there's the ballasted pig coil
> which has still different characteristics. If the newbie can get
> a grip on the expected behaviors of these various types of coils,
> then he's ahead of the game at least as a starting point. As he
> progresses in his coiling over time, he may or may not decide to
> study the underlying physics, or subtleties of coil and gap
> behavior, etc. The ideas I'm offering offer a starting point for
> understanding for the newbie as he's approaching coil design
> questions.
>
>
> >Maximum spark output as a
> >comparative value can be good or bad depending on many variables. But
> >given the data at the time of measurement, usually a single conclusion
> >would be made (what you see is what you get).
>
> Again, most newbies when they begin coiling, are looking for maximum
> spark length from their coils for a given input power. I'd say at least
90%
> of the newbie questions on this list attest to that. Other newbies want
> maximum spark length regardless of input power !
>
> >I agree that more of "us" should join in and do the comparisons that you
> >have done (as you know, you are in high regard with me in this respect).
> >But even though that is true, I still have doubts on conclusions on some
> >things (not to be disagreeable, but simply attempting to understand the
> >conclusions with the tests at hand). I guess it comes down to the more I
> >learn, the more I don't take everything at face value and give a little
> >more attention to statements or conclusions.
>
>
> You're approaching the issues as a true scientist and researcher.
> I have that side of my personality also, and hold it in high regard.
> I think there's also a place in coiling for rules of thumb, or general
> guidelines
> for what a coiler can expect from a particular coil configuration.
>
>
> >I'm uncertain on many past gap experiments of comparison. I think all
> >test are certainly worthwhile and tell us something, but I'm not sure we
> >have actually determined well what it is the tests have shown us. More
> >work is certainly needed in this area as you have stated in just about
> >every post on the subject. I think your exactly right about that.
>
> I agree that many past gap experiments were poorly done and resulted
> in wrong conclusions. Some of my early experiments fall into that
> category I later realized. Yes, more work is needed.
>
> Cheers,
> John
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >Bart
>
>
>
>
>
> FutureT@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > Bart,
> >
> > I think that in probably all cases an NST powered LTR coil under
> > 2 or 3kW will give longer sparks using a 120 bps rotary or a
> > 120 bps triggered gap than
> > using a static gap. If the coil has a smaller (STR) cap, then
> > it may do just as well using the static gap as with a rotary,
> > because it's no longer necessary to fire at the peak voltage for
> > best results. Also such a coil may need an ASRG to find
> > the sweet spot. In coils that have non-shunted transformers
> > the picture becomes more complex because the degree of
> > ballasting effects the input power, etc, and can enable the
> > coil to perform at various break-rates, etc. Regarding how
> > the gap is being evaluated, I'm looking simply at max spark
> > output. If the gap heats up after awhile and the sparks shrink,
> > then it's obvious more cooling is needed, or a re-design, etc.
> > Certainly a high powered coil will need a more robust spark
> > gap, etc. Many of these things are just common sense
> > issues. I consider the comparisons to be valid as long as
> > the sorts of things I mention are considered. It would be
> > good to see more folks doing such comparisons however.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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